Notify Message
Forums
#4620612 Jul 08, 2011 at 03:10 PM
Member
100 Posts
I've been trying to get on the OD raid for 3 weeks now. With no luck.

I've worked as hard as the next guy to get my gear and virtues raid ready, and it stinks not to get picked. At first I it didn't bother me. I was new, unproven, and I figure I didn't make the roll. I thought I would have to wake up earlier for my spot "in line" I understand the preference of want to have the same people, but to be honest, it doesn't always work that way, and I feel that perhaps the kin should adapt to that possibility. Yes, those that are on the raid list - time, and time again are getting much needed experience at the expense of other kin members who are also raid qualified.

So far, getting passed over 3x in a row has made me begin to feel a bit suspicious. To the point of wondering if the raid leader is playing favorites. How am I supposed to help the kin with end lvl raids if I never get to participate in them? I know it's hard to schedule these raid times, but with only one OD raid a week, these spots are becoming high coveted. Even if we can't have enough qualified kin members to run 2 OD raids at once, surely we can fill in spot with qualified Alliance kin members? And perhaps split the experience members between the raids?
-Luvhandles 65 Hunter
-Cinnimon 75 RK
-Arrtful 75 Burg

-Mayor of Middle-Earth (it's a Foursquare thing)
+0
#4621169 Jul 08, 2011 at 05:18 PM
Member
303 Posts
I am playing favorites. OD is a difficult raid.. and if I've never played with you, chances of me inviting you are slim. It's noted in each raid description that spots are pre-selected and any sign-ups and replys will be considered for fill-in positions if a raider is unable to attend. Hunter spots have been more than filled each week.

I am not an officer and any raids I run can't refelct the policies of OME. I just use the event calendar to see who interested. If an officer sets up a raid it would be different.. but I'm kind of a jerk in how I set mine up.

Thanks,
Malivek
+0
#4621266 Jul 08, 2011 at 05:43 PM
Member
100 Posts
Well then, we need an experienced OD Raid leader to set up another run. Since OD resets 1x a week, I'm afraid cherry-picking your crew wont be a viable option once we have 2 separate runs a week. I know that sounds mean - but once we get this idea running regularly, you will have more than enough experienced people to choose from.

This isn't about you. I want to make that clear. Unfortunately, you are the only guy leading OD runs at the moment. But I would hate to see this practice of end-lvl raids being carried over to Rise of Isengard. (which ever that raid will be) Plenty of us are looking for the opportunity. Unfortunately, our development is at the risk of being stagnant, not being able to have the opportunities to challenge ourselves as some of your crew does. Yes, we can get gear, and jewelery through grinding out skirms and such..but isn't end lvl content what we strive for? I would like to see more, but for that...more people have to step up to lead.
-Luvhandles 65 Hunter
-Cinnimon 75 RK
-Arrtful 75 Burg

-Mayor of Middle-Earth (it's a Foursquare thing)
+0
#4621392 Jul 08, 2011 at 06:14 PM
Ally
83 Posts
The kin isn't a raiding kin, it's a kin that raids. That is why I no longer try to get in spots.

Rank 10 WL, Agrorezzer
+0
#4621832 Jul 08, 2011 at 08:02 PM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
100 Posts
#4621392 Elyske wrote:

The kin isn't a raiding kin, it's a kin that raids. That is why I no longer try to get in spots.



Fair enough...But if the same 12-15 people are always on the same team for the most challenging raid, where does that leave the rest of the kin? How are they supposed to get better or have a shot at getting any of that uber loot?

I'm not placing the blame on Mal, he's gracious enough to organize it every week, but clearly the kin is growing in active max level members. I think the problem lies more in not having another person dedicated to putting in a second OD raid. If I knew OD well enough, I would organize another run.

In the long run, I think it would be better to encourage kin members to get their gear and virtues up by rewarding their efforts with invites to run OD(t2). Yes, there will be growing pains getting all the OD newbies in-step, but once they are seasoned, favorites wont be so much an issue, as long as people know their tasks. I mean honestly, is it really a bragging issue that one's kin is able to clear OD t2 when it's only 15 guys of the kin that can do it, or when 50% of the kin members can do it at any time?
-Luvhandles 65 Hunter
-Cinnimon 75 RK
-Arrtful 75 Burg

-Mayor of Middle-Earth (it's a Foursquare thing)
+0
#4622773 Jul 09, 2011 at 12:24 AM
Member
138 Posts
Hopefully, as my work load lessens this summer, I will have time to start playing and raiding again. I hope to make more than one or two raid nights with different groups for each raid. But its all theory right now. Ive just picked up another job lined up for august so im not sure how thats gonna go. So far i havent played at all in the past month or 2 due to work and a wedding. So again, im sorry you are feeling left out but there are others that are in your position as well. We are trying to get through OD with enough experienced people to start swapping them out or put together a whole different group.

-Art
+0
#4623350 Jul 09, 2011 at 04:43 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
38 Posts
I've talked about this with many and I hope every knows my stance. I wanna see OD at some point, but I'm not grinding marks for gear nor do I want a 65 FA emblem thingy. Not this time, RoI is too close.

That being said, I do strive for the best RK gear/stones/satchels/virtues/etc that I can get. This kin has afforded me the luxury of hanging out in 21st for PUGs when I feel 'whimsical' and need marks or something, and runs to help folks, and runs to learn how kinnies work with each other.

I don't expect, and nearly don't even want a spot on kin OD runs. I can PUG a spot faster and easier, and don't want to hold up whatever 'grand plan' there is.

Know this tho... Once RoI hits, I am grinding to be the BEST RK in Middle Earth. Lvl75/virtues/traits/LIs x5/and gears from any-every 3-6 man so I can be one of the first in line for whatever new raid they make.

There will be new things aplenty to hoard folks attention. I will be at the front of the pack this time around, trust that.

That said, if the same end game raiding team choices stay the same, I will leave. And with tears.

I only post this for the officers to discuss perhaps the direction of the end-game raid team(S), S as in PLURAL. There seems to be many folks wanting to see end game. Why can't we have more than one team?

*edit* to note that I plan on having ONE main character, my RK. I see no reason to have top end chars of every class at the start of an expansion, if ever. If you folks play to have alts of every class top end, so you can swap out at will ignoring other folks in kin, I may be in the wrong style of kin. Great folks yes, but perhaps not the playstyle I am used to.

SM weaponsmith. Alts Ginielle 65 LM/SM jeweler and cook, Ginidori 65 Champ/SM tailor, Giniella 54 Warden/SM metalsmith, and a SM farmer living in Hobbiton happily at lvl 12.
+0
#4623515 Jul 09, 2011 at 05:43 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
100 Posts
Thanks Giniluv, your thoughts on the matter are ones I've been trying to convey. I understand that people have waited as long or more likely, longer than I have to get a spot in. I figure if I spoke up, others who feel the same way might lend their opinions as well. I didn't intend to sound whiny, I wanted to bring attention to an issue that I felt was put aside in the past, but now shouldn't be ignored. I'm sure I wasn't the first person to bring it up, but I feel that more kin members are feeling the issue than say, in March when Update 2 came out.

I've addressed the problem because yes, it's has the potential to alienate other kin members. Currently, the way things are-best case scenario, we wait our turn, till RoI comes out, and the OD team goes off to play even more challenging raids, and repeats this cycle. Of course, OD wont be an end-lvl raid anymore, but that's my point. Worst case scenario, is that other kin members start to see this as some sort of elitism, that only some "inner circle" will get to play end-lvl content within the kin, and start to leave.

I've also come up with solutions. And I hope to hear more. All I can address, is that the current plan is not working. At least we should concentrate on a solution before RoI comes out.

Edit: On a comical note, I would like to say waiting for a fill in spot on Mal's Raid team, is like waiting for a promotion for a job at work these days. Waiting for someone's schedule to change is like waiting for some to quit, get fired, or get hit by a bus. :P
-Luvhandles 65 Hunter
-Cinnimon 75 RK
-Arrtful 75 Burg

-Mayor of Middle-Earth (it's a Foursquare thing)
+0
#4623766 Jul 09, 2011 at 07:39 AM
Member
13 Posts
#4623350 Giniluv wrote:

That said, if the same end game raiding team choices stay the same, I will leave. And with tears.



I would echo this thought. I left a good kin to find one that is larger and can support 65+ lvl raiding. If I can't get into these raids, except through PUG's, then I might as well drop out of kinships all together. What's the benefit?

I think that Luvhandles/Cinnimon/Speedster and I would be willing to organize an alternate/beginner OD raid, but we would need an experienced player or two to lead. Mal is certainly free to run his raids as he sees fit. However, if all the experienced OD players are doing his raids, how can a second group get started?
Padraic
A.k.a. Luthenas 75 Hunter, Hathillad 65 RK, Cheddhar of Bree 58 Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrEPJh14mcU
+0
#4627878 Jul 10, 2011 at 08:19 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Officer
171 Posts
Just so it is clear, no one is preventing any one of you folks from applying to Arb and becoming a raid leader.

Simply go ahead and commit the time for two three raids a week. Research the fights, learn the fights, wipe about 15-16 times on one boss before having the fight down, deal with no shows and be able to pull people out of your anus that are geared enough and capable of filling in no show spots, learn the DKP system, and go get em tiger!

Anyone can step up and be the next raid leader, just form a line behind Arb and ask away! If you are So happy with OME don’t leave, do what is necessary to change it. Need more raids? Step up and be a raid leader today!


P.S. OME is not responsible for loss of hair, loss of mental sanity, loss of marriages, shrunken genitals, bloody discharge from the anus and eyes, etc for getting this position. If being a raid leader leads to itching, uncontrollable shaking, frequent profanity, drinking, drinking, excessive drinking and on rare occasions drinking, do not stop raiding, the damage is done.
+0
#4628228 Jul 10, 2011 at 10:17 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
100 Posts
#4627878 Snorrinson wrote:

[size=14]Just so it is clear, no one is preventing any one of you folks from applying to Arb and becoming a raid leader.

Simply go ahead and commit the time for two three raids a week. Research the fights, learn the fights, wipe about 15-16 times on one boss before having the fight down, deal with no shows and be able to pull people out of your anus that are geared enough and capable of filling in no show spots, learn the DKP system, and go get em tiger!

Anyone can step up and be the next raid leader, just form a line behind Arb and ask away! If you are So happy with OME don’t leave, do what is necessary to change it. Need more raids? Step up and be a raid leader today!



It's a little harder than that. First, I willing to put up a sign up spot, but I'm not qualified to be an OD raid leader. I only was involved in OD (wound) 2x -from PUGS, and both attempts were failures. I've already researched the fights; but researching, and implementing are TWO different things. To get this thing off the ground, I'm asking for at least 3 experienced OD vets, with one of them stepping up to be raid leader. But as Luthenas pointed out before:

#4623766 Luthenas wrote:

However, if all the experienced OD players are doing his raids, how can a second group get started?



I fear if I try to start one, I'm not going to be able to get enough resources (veteran players) to get it off the ground if they are already locked out because they participated in Mal's raid. I would like to have people from Mal's raid team are going to have to volunteer to guide us through.

This has been an issue for awhile, but no one has been willing to say, "Yeah, I don't mind going through another 15 wipes so that the newbies can learn the system." Yesterday someone in kin chat said, "We killed OD last night", and someone replied, "Yeah we did!" Yet none of the team wants to peel off and help the rest of the kin by showing how to run the OD raid. It's starting to look like one tight little group that doesn't want to help the rest of the kin progress. This is what is frustrating me and I imagine others in the kin. It's like we should be happy at the privilege of being a fill in, when the direction should be having more people learn these end-lvl raids. And these practices look to be continued on to RoI.

This thread has been up for almost 3 days. Yet the only people who approached me to get a new OD raid off the ground, are ones that haven't even seen OD yet. I would like to see some Veteran OD raiders approach me to help before I'm willing to set up a new raid.

-Luvhandles 65 Hunter
-Cinnimon 75 RK
-Arrtful 75 Burg

-Mayor of Middle-Earth (it's a Foursquare thing)
+0
#4628262 Jul 10, 2011 at 10:25 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
303 Posts
You don't need someone who knows it, you need someone who is willing to learn it. Raiding isn't about already knowing what to do, it's about learning about it as a group. I didn't know anything when I set our group up either. Start T1, make some progress every week.

Our first try all we did is die.. every week you make progress. We are STILL learning. Last week we tried fear wing.. didn't accomplish anything except getting some ideas on what to try the next week.
+0
#4628268 Jul 10, 2011 at 10:27 AM
Member
303 Posts
#4627878 Snorrinson wrote:



P.S. OME is not responsible for loss of hair, loss of mental sanity, loss of marriages, shrunken genitals, bloody discharge from the anus and eyes, etc for getting this position. If being a raid leader leads to itching, uncontrollable shaking, frequent profanity, drinking, drinking, excessive drinking and on rare occasions drinking, do not stop raiding, the damage is done.



.. and yes this is all correct.
+0
#4628473 Jul 10, 2011 at 11:31 AM
Member
100 Posts
If no one wants to lend their "on-the-ground OD consulting" to a new raid, then so be it. I will offer a chance to all OD newbies a chance to explore their potential of enduring an end-lvl raid.

I do want to remind and address though that I'm not looking to make an exclusive group. I feel that by even with the advantages of playing with the same people raid after raid, (progressing faster) that I would be alienating the rest of the raid-qualified kin that also wants a chance. Which is the whole reason why I brought this up in the first place. Mal has his rights as a raid leader to choose how he leads his raids. Even though I don't agree with some of his ideas, I respect him and choose to lead a different way. I do encourage however, to change how things are so that other good players don't get frustrated and leave the kin. I hope the idea of rotating players between both raids will happen in the future...not only with OD, but future raids to come.

I did think of making an "A & B" squad, with Mal's being "A" squad, but that would still be having us run into the same problems...just delaying the conflict that we have now.
-Luvhandles 65 Hunter
-Cinnimon 75 RK
-Arrtful 75 Burg

-Mayor of Middle-Earth (it's a Foursquare thing)
+0
#4628758 Jul 10, 2011 at 12:59 PM
Ally
151 Posts
So... I can understand everything on all sides of this.

I am one of OME's more experienced raiders all in all, but I am not in Mal's raid group. Mostly due to time issues in my side (at least I think thats why...haha)

Raids to some extent have to be selective. You can not just put 12 people in there and hope to finish. You have to have the right class make up.
People need to show up on time. People need to be geared correctly. Virtues have to be in order.

When Malivek, Snorri, Kat, Guldur and the others started the OD raids, they did not know what to expect either. They researched the raid on line, talked to a couple players in other kins that did it and then proceeded to go in and get dominated by the raid. Retool, ask more, try again. After 12ihs weeks, they now have 3 of the wings down very well.

As Snorri said ANYONE can go do this.

I would be willing to be in one of these "B" team groups if the time worked out. But I do not "know" these runs, so we will wipe a LOT. I am not willing to lead it at this point, so someone else set one up. Lead it, research it and I will go on it.

So while I understand the frustration of not being invited to the "A" Team group, the solution really is as simple as start a new group and accept you will die a lot. People will no show. People will be late. People will leave middle of the main fight because we wiped one too many times. People will refuse to retrait or will refuse to drop Warspeach to heal and everyone will die A LOT.
Kinship Ally: available for quest/raid help and access to ventrillo
+0
#4629090 Jul 10, 2011 at 02:28 PM · Edited 6 years ago
Officer
171 Posts
Again to help people not experienced in raiding:

If you do not plan on wiping 10 times per boss in a new wing, don’t raid
If you do not plan on spending 2-3gold on repairs, don’t raid
If you do not plan on spending 2-3 hours to prepares tokens, foods and scrolls, don’t raid
If you do not plan on showing up for all raids, don’t raid
If you do not plan on being frustrated, don’t raid
If you do not plan on spending 2-3 hour researching each fight and watching how other guilds do it, don’t raid
If you do not plan on listening to a leader tell you what to do while you stay quiet, don’t raid

If you DO plan on doing these things try setting up a raid yourself, message people, get a group of 12 and try doing DN, good solid intro dungeon, a massive number of resources for it, and the gear is still excellent.
+0
#4629858 Jul 10, 2011 at 05:45 PM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
100 Posts
The last 2 replies are sound advice. These people are making it CLEAR what we are getting into.

#4628758 Cularian wrote:


Raids to some extent have to be selective. You can not just put 12 people in there and hope to finish.



I understand this, and would like to run with the same people rather than choose random hopefuls in the kin. I plan to be selective up to a point. However, it was Mal's selectiveness that frustrated me and other kin members in the first place. I'm not planning to repeat the cycle if I can help it. Yes, finishing will be slower, but my goal is to have more kin members familiar with the raids, so that if schedules change, we can have plenty of people who know the raids to fill in. I expect that there will be HUGE growing pains, but the end result will be worth it. It's gonna start out like a "B" team, but eventually, I hope both teams will be at top lvls, where members will be mostly be interchangeable

In the mean time, prioritize your gear and virtues to raid-ready!
-Luvhandles 65 Hunter
-Cinnimon 75 RK
-Arrtful 75 Burg

-Mayor of Middle-Earth (it's a Foursquare thing)
+0
#4631959 Jul 11, 2011 at 03:41 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
38 Posts
I guess my only hang-up is that this 'A-team' only pulls from a small pool. If that is due to Mal leading and his call, then fine. If it is due to favoritism, then again Mal's call and fine, but not cool.

I would guess there are several kin who are able to participate, gear and skill wise, but don't get asked in favor of a lower tuned alt of someone. THIS it what makes me sad.

This is what will divide the kin.

If you as officers are truly saying "Make your own team from scratch" then why are we in this kin? I thought kin was to help others?

While I understand the 'selective' process, I do not understand the lack of help to get another group up to speed.

I have watched vids, read the threads, and may know the fights better than some of you with never even being there. What's to say you guys are taking so long to 'figure things out' is because you have no new eyes?

If the officers want a new set of raiders with a new lead, I'm OK with that. But don't sit up there and preach down to us like we are children.

Sit up there and watch us 'minor players' catch up. I woulda thought a pool of folks to draw from would be in best interest for everyone.

*edit* as a side note, here's a paste from one of the threads I read...


6-man Fellowship Accomplishments in Ost Dunhoth

Streiter der Freiheit ([DE-RP] Belegaer) - Wound T2; Poison T2C; Fear T2C
Egladius ([DE-RP] Belegaer) Poison T2C
Soldiers of the White City ([EU] Laurelin) - Poison T2C


6 manned!?!?!!! WOW!

SM weaponsmith. Alts Ginielle 65 LM/SM jeweler and cook, Ginidori 65 Champ/SM tailor, Giniella 54 Warden/SM metalsmith, and a SM farmer living in Hobbiton happily at lvl 12.
+0
#4632882 Jul 11, 2011 at 09:09 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Ally
74 Posts
Hey folks. Please bear with me as I add my two coppers to this discussion.

First, some quick background info on me. This is my first MMO and I have been here a little over three years. I've been actively raiding for a little over two and a half years. During that time, I've run with the Brandywine Raiders, Rampage, Aure Entuluva and assorted other kin/groups. Brandywine Raiders was essentially a group of allied players that ran the Rift of Nurz Gashu and signups were first come, first served. The Rift strat was well established by then, so it was easy to swap players. AE was and is a small group of players forming a raiding kinship. Membership is limited to 16-18 players and everyone is available to raid on the appointed days with a rotation established to keep everyone involved. Players not in the raid are on stand-by. Rampage was just about as hardcore as you can get. The setup was similar to Aure Entuluva, but the kin was focused on downing content as soon as it went live. You were expected to be at the top of your game, and if the kin spent 11 hours getting the world first kill for a raid, you'd darn well better be there for all of it.

I wanted to share all that to establish a little credibility for what I have to say. As you can see, I've been in a lot of different raiding situations. Another situation I have been in is the large kinship with a raiding group. Naturally, a large kin will have a wide variety of players. Folks will have different personal lives, work schedules, personalities, gaming skill levels, time to devote to the game... you name it. Eventually, some players who are not raiding will want to try their hand at it. Since the raid group is usually already established, opportunities to raid with the group are rare. A successful raiding group is one that works together effectively. That sort of team building doesn't happen overnight. The same group learns the content together. Their roles become established and content gets easier. When folks on the outside of this group want to join in and raid, they can't because the group is already established. This invariably leads to cries of elitism/favoritism by those who feel they've been disenfranchised by the raiding group.

At this point, one of three things will happen:

1) Those players who feel alienated will leave the kin and form their own or join another kin.

2) The raiders will leave the kin and form their own kin, focused exclusively on endgame content.

3) The raiders and those who want to raid will form another raiding group. This group will, ideally, have more of a social aspect to it. The group may draw on players from outside the kinship to fill their raids. The kinships experienced raiders will help the newer raiders as they can, but should not feel obligated or compelled to lend their assistance. Such expectation could lead to outcome #2 happening.

I sincerely hope that we, as a kin, follow outcome #3.

As has been stated already in this thread, the raid group is still working on learning the strats to successfully clear OD. There are six wings to this raid. We have achieved challenges in two wings, and successfully completed Tier 2 in a third wing. We spent a little over two hours last night wiping repeatedly in a fourth wing, trying to learn the fight. As you can see, we have a long way to go before we have 'killed OD'. It is my firm belief that the composition of the raid group must stay as static as possible (same people on the same characters) in order to be successful before RoI comes out and trivializes the raid altogether. I understand that this wasn't always the case for the BG raid and that the kin was unable to defeat the Lieutenant. My experience with a static group was different. We defeated that content and had it on farm because our group stayed the same and was dedicated to playing their respective classes to the best of their ability. None of those players woke up one day and said, "I think I want to start raiding today".

Good grief this is becoming a wall of text, so let me cut to the chase:

Those of you who have expressed an interest in raiding, start a group. If we can help, we will, but don't play the elitist card, please. No one is trying to limit your development and quite frankly, the insinuation that we are is offensive. I suggest that you avoid the impression that this new group would be a "B Team" as it were. No one is better than anyone else here and to suggest otherwise will only foster resentment.

Oh and one last thing: Those six man OD clears. Pretty amazing, but please do not take them as an indication of the ease of clearing the raid. Those are Euro kins (Russian, I believe) who are at the absolute pinnacle of the game (for what that is worth). I never EVER want to spend that much time in the game, such that it ceases to be fun and becomes a job.

Edit: typo



"Never tell me the odds!"
+0
#4633226 Jul 11, 2011 at 10:33 AM · Edited 6 years ago
Member
38 Posts

Oh and one last thing: Those six man OD clears. Pretty amazing, but please do not take them as an indication of the ease of clearing the raid. Those are Euro kins (Russian, I believe) who are at the absolute pinnacle of the game (for what that is worth). I never EVER want to spend that much time in the game, such that it ceases to be fun and becomes a job.


German actually. And I did not paste that to say anything at all about the difficulty of OD, but merely to show that ya don't NEED that 'perfect' raid makeup to get it done.

Your #3 Curu is where we are going with this for sure. I know in my gut that we will pull from outside kin. Some of us belong to alliances that we can pull from. I have made it clear and am honest about that.

You have the right to feel offended, just as we have right to feel left out.

'B Team' doesn't mean we feel smaller, just that we aren't first team to do it. This isn't segregation, it's growing a bunch of folks that want to see end game content. Yes the kin is based on every lvl of content, but many of us want to see end game.

The main point is... once RoI lets out and things get figured out about LIs and stats and such... if the current raid team setup stays the same excluding others SOLELY because ya know each others voice in vent etc without bearing towards skill... then we have an issue.

SM weaponsmith. Alts Ginielle 65 LM/SM jeweler and cook, Ginidori 65 Champ/SM tailor, Giniella 54 Warden/SM metalsmith, and a SM farmer living in Hobbiton happily at lvl 12.
+0